About the ratio edit
It's not correct as it stands. The article says "factories", and a "factory" is the black box where the corresponding item pops out. How the factory achieves this, and what's inside that factory, isn't relevant. So the ratio change is wrong. A ratio of 5:6:5 (green factories:red factories:blue factories) was and is correct for this point of view.
If you change "factory" into "assembling machine", it would be correct, because you need green assembling machines to produce red circuits. So the new ratio 6:5:5 is correct for (green assembling machines:red assembling machines:blue assembling machines). If seen this way, all assembling machines define one big blue factory and no separate green or red factories.
Since the articles about the other circuits also speak of factories and don't count the intermediates needed within them (otherwise you need more copper cable factories for the advanced circuit), I suggest to revert to the previous ratio to keep things consistent. One doesn't always build green circuits on the spot within a red or blue circuit factory - often if not usually it comes preproduced from a bus, outside the "factory". Tertius3 (talk) 14:37, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- I suggested an edit here because I thought the ratios were incorrect. There has been a counter suggestion that they are correct because the page refers to factories, whereas I was referring to assembling machines.
- I don't believe that the definition of factory claimed here is understood. It certainly isn't defined anywhere in the wiki.
- For example is a processing unit factory, 1 assembling machine, or 5 machines? Should the page instead reference 1 green 'factory' and 1.2 red factories per blue factory?
- This isn't helped because just before the definition of ratios, assembling machines are referenced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRY411S (talk • contribs) 15:02, 4 April 2022
- Hey, I took the liberty to merge the two sections since they are about the same topic.
- I think you both raise good points: "factory" is not defined on the page(s) and the definition itself is debatable with different usecases for each. Another problem is the crafting speed of the assembling machines/factories itself; because they are used in conjunction with chemical plants this cannot just be assumed to be "the same tier/amount for all". My general opinion on ratios on the wiki is that they tend to be iffy beyond the simplest of simple cases. Basically everything breaks down at some point with modules etc, even "no-brainers" like 1 iron furnace to 1 steel furnace or 3:2 wire:green circuit assemblers. This makes the ratios a lot more subjective and less useful than they seem at first glance.
- So for now, I removed the ratios on the processing unit and advanced circuit pages. I also tried to make the electronic circuit page a bit clearer.
- However, this is not some "final decision" against ratios on these two pages. The science pack pages have rather large ratio sections that I think go beyond ratio for factories into an overview of where the items in those multistage recipes are going. These seem helpful despite them having some other flaws (what items are broken down/have assemblers listed and what don't, what assembler tier etc). I think sections of similar organization may work here too. If someone can come up with these sections for processing unit and advanced circuit pages (with the necessary associated constraints) I encourage you to add them to the pages. -- Bilka (talk) - Admin 12:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- It's difficult to rate the usefulness of ratios, because everyone has probably a different view on the game. Personally, I fond the ratios in the circuits articles not useful, because either they were trivial (green circuit) or they result from themselves as soon as you start building (red, blue). There was exactly one moment they were useful for me: when I was a beginner and didn't know the orders of magnitude and the feeling of ratios in general. I lacked the feeling if I need a magnitude of 1 or 2 or 10 assembling machines for one product. But I'm not a reference Factorio player.
- Perhaps a general article about ratios for intermediate products is more useful, then try to move all ratios to a big table there. If you start the game, you can get an overview there. If you're an advanced player, you probably use some of the calculators on the web or know them by heart instead. Ratios are an important meta-game mechanic, so an article on its own could be justified. Add this page to the "see also" part where appropriate. List basic ratios with only assembling machines of the same type and without modules there. There are large ratio discussions for oil and power production, keep them there. But trivial ratios can perhaps go to a central page.
- Or a totally different approach: add a ratio display to the infobox template. Can be auto-calculated with the game data and mass-added to all articles that contain an infobox.
- About the word "factory", you're right. It is used in so many different situations. Sometimes it is used as synonym with single assembling machines, sometimes it is used for your whole base or a significant part of it. Not only in the wiki but also everywhere else, so it's probably best to keep the word variable and undefined. It gets its meaning with the context. Tertius3 (talk) 13:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Good point regarding the ratios giving an overview of the magnitude of assemblers needed. I agree that a ratio page/ratio tutorial may be good, but it seems like large project and hard to get right. So for now, I readded the ratio sections for the two pages, in the same format as the ratios on science pack pages. -- Bilka (talk) - Admin 10:41, 20 May 2022 (UTC)